Bronsåldersfantasy?
- Thread starter Ram
- Start date
Är det någon som vet eller har hittat resurser över kläder och utrustning för bronsålder i norra Europa och Skandinavien? Det mesta jag hittar är ju från medelhavskulturerna och det vore kul att hitta något lite närmare hem så att säga
JohanL
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- 23 Jan 2021
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- 8,322
Bronshjälmar har vi väl dokumenterade, men utöver det är jag osäker - samtidigt känns det som en historisk konstant att man alltid försöker hitta en rustning att ha (men om denna var hudar, bark eller liknande lämnar den inga rester efter sig. Kläder finns det rätt gott om, däremot, på grund av tur med gravfynd och fynd i mossar - du vill kolla upp den här kickstartern till exempel.
Den säkerligen mest kända (Egtved-flickan):
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WC-zonmö i behov av IQ-hjälp
Minnen från vår forntid. 1, Stenåldern och bronsåldern
OSCE M ONCE de be es MINNEN ERAN VÅR FORNTID "Selma" Sf ör cr Kr Oo Lf Pr BE SA SENS or st oc dött CE No ochec tr 5 a
Vad klädedräkten beträffar finns mindre bevarat. Egtvedpigen nämndes ovan. Det finns även ett par gravar i Borum Eshøj med kläder bevarade.
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Går det att göra antaganden om hur folk klädde sig? vet att det är rätt ont om intakta kläder, men finns det Kvalificerade gissningar någon gjort?
Jäklar denna verkar intressant, ska kolla in!
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WC-zonmö i behov av IQ-hjälp
Ja, det enklaste är väl att anta att dom kläder som har bevarats speglar tidens mode skapligt väl. Om man tar höjd för att ylle sannolikt var åt det lyxigare hållet.
Sophie Bergerbrants doktorsavhandling innehåller en del rekonstruktioner av bevarade kläder på sidan 51 och framåt. Sophie är väldigt kunnig när det kommer till textiler, så rekonstruktionerna bör vara rimliga, om än förskräckligt illustrerade. Annars såg @JohanL s bok intressant ut
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WC-zonmö i behov av IQ-hjälp
Om man kan få tag på Wargames Illustrated nr 360 finns där en inte så dum artikel om skärmytslingsspel under nordeuropeisk bronsålder, med illustrerande miniatyrer som man kan ha som inspiration.
Perfekt! precis vad jag letade efter!
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WC-zonmö i behov av IQ-hjälp
Jag var faktiskt på en presentation häromveckan som bland annat behandlade Doggerland. Det var en nederländsk doktorand som sysslat med att datera översvämningens faser."Det sjönk i havet för 7000 år sen, men återuppstår nu i skönlitterär form. Catharina Ingelman-Sundberg berättar om Nordsjöns sjunkna paradis Doggerland. [...]
Doggerland - Nordsjöns Atlantis - Vetenskapsradion Historia
Det sjönk i havet för 7000 år sen, men återuppstår nu i skönlitterär form. Catharina Ingelman-Sundberg berättar om Nordsjöns sjunkna paradis Doggerland. ...sverigesradio.se
Doggerland var under tusentals år hem åt europeiska stenåldersjägare som fiskade och jagade i de rika sjöarna, åarna och skogarna. Men Doggerland sjönk under de stigande havsnivåerna efter istidens slut och idag pågår jakten efter spåren efter detta försvunna Atlantis. Författaren och marinarkeologen skildrar livet på Doggerland i aktuella Landet som försvann."
Tänkte när jag såg bilden nedan att det inte hade varit en så dum spelvärldskarta.
Visst, det är jägarstenålder vi talar om, men man har väl inte mindre fantasi än att man kan föreställa sej en bortspolad högkultur där för 10 000 år sen.
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Hällristarnas hemliga sällskap - Vetenskapsradion Historia
Hällristarna kan ha tillhört ett hemligt sällskap där båtbygge och handelskontakter gav en maktposition i bronsålderns Skandinavien. En makt som förevigades ...
sverigesradio.se
Skepp, människor och märkliga symboler pryder Skandinaviens berghällar. Hur de ska tolkas har gäckat vetenskapsmän i hundratals år och nu sammanfattar arkeologen Johan Ling vad vi vet om hällristningarna och de som knackade in bilderna i boken Hällristningarnas värld.
Enligt honom kan många av ristningarna ha gjorts av ett hemligt sällskap som med ristningarna velat manifestera sin maktposition i bronsålderssamhället. En position byggd på handeln med koppar och tenn och kunskapen om handelsvägar ut i Europa."
JohanL
Champion
- Joined
- 23 Jan 2021
- Messages
- 8,322
Vi vet att den andra stora handelsvaran är bärnsten, och bara för att vi vet att den exporteras landvägen ned genom Centraleuropa, så innebär det väl inte att den inte kan handlas sjövägen också?"Hällristarna kan ha tillhört ett hemligt sällskap där båtbygge och handelskontakter gav en maktposition i bronsålderns Skandinavien. En makt som förevigades i berghällar vid havsstranden.Hällristarnas hemliga sällskap - Vetenskapsradion Historia
Hällristarna kan ha tillhört ett hemligt sällskap där båtbygge och handelskontakter gav en maktposition i bronsålderns Skandinavien. En makt som förevigades ...
Skepp, människor och märkliga symboler pryder Skandinaviens berghällar. Hur de ska tolkas har gäckat vetenskapsmän i hundratals år och nu sammanfattar arkeologen Johan Ling vad vi vet om hällristningarna och de som knackade in bilderna i boken Hällristningarnas värld.
Enligt honom kan många av ristningarna ha gjorts av ett hemligt sällskap som med ristningarna velat manifestera sin maktposition i bronsålderssamhället. En position byggd på handeln med koppar och tenn och kunskapen om handelsvägar ut i Europa."
Jag betvivlar också att ett verkligt monopol kan upprätthållas för något som är så enkelt att bygga som träbåtar - säg mer lösa handelsorganisationer som gör sitt bästa för att upprätthålla sina affärshemligheter (där de magiska praktikerna särskilt ingår)?
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Vad har det med vad som tas upp i avsnittet att göra?
JohanL
Champion
- Joined
- 23 Jan 2021
- Messages
- 8,322
Att han helt fokuserar på bronshandeln, när annan handel (som bärnsten) och rädande torde ha varit viktiga faktorer i vad man använder sina båtar till? Samt att han i alla fall får det att se ut som att vi pratar om ett hemligt sällskap.
Jag menar, eftersom bägge komponenterna i brons är importvaror måste man med nödvändighet ha exporterat något också (alternativt ha levt bara på transiten, men det känns mindre sannolikt).
Bronshandeln var livsviktig för den nordiska bronsålderskulturen eftersom man gjorde nästan alla redskap av detta importerade material. I större delen av kulturens område finns ingen bärnsten. Man brukar räkna med att pälsverk var den viktigaste bytesvaran.
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WC-zonmö i behov av IQ-hjälp
Jag har artikeln där Ling m.fl. först beskriver den där tolkningen. Ska leta upp den senare.
"Hemliga sällskap"-tanken utgår hursomhelst från Brian Haydens The Power of Ritual in Prehistory., som jag vid nåt tillfälle ska läsa, då konceptet vore kul att införliva i Odödlig Dom.
"Hemliga sällskap"-tanken utgår hursomhelst från Brian Haydens The Power of Ritual in Prehistory., som jag vid nåt tillfälle ska läsa, då konceptet vore kul att införliva i Odödlig Dom.
ArtStation - Shang dynasty general, Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols
"General of the SHANG DYNASTY (1600 –1046 BC), which ruled China’s Central Plain during the BRONZE AGE. Reconstruction made with the advice of my friend Equus Ballo https://www.youtube.com/c/EquusBallo (for Spanish-speakers, check his YouTube channel to learn more about the Shang dynasty and ancient Chinese history).
While the pharaohs of the New Kingdom were ruling Egypt, the nomadic “Aryans” were migrating into the collapsing Indus Valley Civilization, and Mycenaean Greece and the Hittite Empire were the great powers of the eastern Mediterranean, the kings of the Shang dynasty ruled what could be considered the heartland of ancient China, a territory much smaller than the massive empire of later dynasties such as the Han. At the time, much of modern-day China was still inhabited by a vast number of non-Sinitic peoples of very diverse origins.
This general carries a huge “yue” bronze axe with turquoise inlays and decorative jade beads, which is more of a symbol of command than an actual practical weapon. Around his waist, he has a belt with a bronze bow-shaped fitting, also with turquoise inlays, which was used to hold the reins of a chariot in battle. From the belt hangs a jade disc, from which a curved knife with a wooden handle with turquoise inlays is suspended. Because the form of the inlays in the original find isn’t clear, I gave them a different hypothetical form. Notice the absence of pants, which were not worn by the Shang, and were adopted from the steppe later. The shield is made of wood, bamboo and lacquered leather, based on a preserved find. The leather armour is also based on a find. He wears earrings, a necklace and bracelets made of jade and carnelian beads. The clothes are based on Shang figurines and preserved textiles with matching patterns, both from Shang China and the Bronze Age mummies of the Tarim Basin. As for the background, the most striking element is the roof of the building. Unlike later dynasties, the roofs of Shang buildings were thatched instead of tiled."
"General of the SHANG DYNASTY (1600 –1046 BC), which ruled China’s Central Plain during the BRONZE AGE. Reconstruction made with the advice of my friend Equus Ballo https://www.youtube.com/c/EquusBallo (for Spanish-speakers, check his YouTube channel to learn more about the Shang dynasty and ancient Chinese history).
While the pharaohs of the New Kingdom were ruling Egypt, the nomadic “Aryans” were migrating into the collapsing Indus Valley Civilization, and Mycenaean Greece and the Hittite Empire were the great powers of the eastern Mediterranean, the kings of the Shang dynasty ruled what could be considered the heartland of ancient China, a territory much smaller than the massive empire of later dynasties such as the Han. At the time, much of modern-day China was still inhabited by a vast number of non-Sinitic peoples of very diverse origins.
This general carries a huge “yue” bronze axe with turquoise inlays and decorative jade beads, which is more of a symbol of command than an actual practical weapon. Around his waist, he has a belt with a bronze bow-shaped fitting, also with turquoise inlays, which was used to hold the reins of a chariot in battle. From the belt hangs a jade disc, from which a curved knife with a wooden handle with turquoise inlays is suspended. Because the form of the inlays in the original find isn’t clear, I gave them a different hypothetical form. Notice the absence of pants, which were not worn by the Shang, and were adopted from the steppe later. The shield is made of wood, bamboo and lacquered leather, based on a preserved find. The leather armour is also based on a find. He wears earrings, a necklace and bracelets made of jade and carnelian beads. The clothes are based on Shang figurines and preserved textiles with matching patterns, both from Shang China and the Bronze Age mummies of the Tarim Basin. As for the background, the most striking element is the roof of the building. Unlike later dynasties, the roofs of Shang buildings were thatched instead of tiled."
ArtStation - Libyan chieftain, Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols
"LIBYAN chieftain from the Late Bronze Age. The ancient Libyan tribes, of Berber / Amazigh origin, lived a nomadic and semi-nomadic life between the Mediterranean coast of North Africa and the oases of the Sahara, being the western nemesis of pharaonic Egypt. The Libyan tribes of the Libu (after whom the entire region of Libya was later named by the Greeks), the Meshwesh, the Temehu, the Tehenu and the Rebu, formed a coalition with some groups of the Sea Peoples such as the Sherden, and invaded Egypt on several occasions. Ramesses III (reigned from 1186 to 1155 BC) was one of the pharaohs that led successful military campaigns against the invading Libyans and their Sea People allies.
Ancient Egyptian art stereotypically represented the Libyans practically naked except for a loincloth and a cloak, both garments probably made of dyed and painted leather. Egyptian art often represents the cloaks of the Libyans having irregular patterns, that have been interpreted as either cow or giraffe hide. The Libyan in my illustration wears a cloak made of exotic giraffe hide, imported from south of the Sahara. Other common characteristics of the Libyans in Egyptian art are the ostrich feathers on their head, their elaborate hairstyles, and their tattoos. Sometimes they are also represented wearing some jewellery such as earrings, necklaces and ear studs. The most common weapon of the Libyans during the Bronze Age was the bow, with primitive stone-tipped arrows. Egyptian reliefs also suggest that some Libyans acquired southern European bronze swords from their Sea People allies during the campaigns against Egypt, as indigenous metallurgy in Libya was presumably very scarce. Another interesting feature of how the Libyans were portrayed in Egyptian art is their skin colour. Ancient Egyptian artists stereotypically represented Libyan warriors with light yellowish skin (the same skin colour they normally used for pale Egyptian women and for West Asians), in contrast with the dark reddish brown they used for the tanned Egyptian men, although representations of darker-skinned Libyans are also known, suggesting that tribes living further south were probably darker. "
ArtStation - Sherden warriors, Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols
"
SHERDEN WARRIORS, one of the groups that formed the pirates known as “SEA PEOPLES”, that contributed to the collapse of the LATE BRONZE AGE civilizations of the Eastern Mediterranean (all except Egypt, which successfully repelled them). The Sea Peoples are mostly known from two sources: the Old Testament and the inscriptions on temples made by the Egyptian pharaohs that fought against them, which are Ramesses II, Merneptah and Ramesses III. Ramesses II incorporated Sherden warriors to his own army, adding a Sun disc to their horned helmets. The Egyptian inscriptions credit the Sea Peoples alone for the destruction of the Hittite Empire and Canaan (which brought the Bronze Age to an end in the Middle East, as later civilizations started using more iron), and modern historians have also connected them with the destruction of Mycenaean Greece, but today it is believed that the Sea Peoples themselves were refugees fleeing from calamities in their lands of origin. The origin of the different groups of Sea Peoples has never been known, but based on the little information available, some possible origins have been proposed. It is believed that many of these pirates came from the islands of the Aegean Sea and the coast of Greece and Anatolia, but it is also likely than many came from the Levant. The Sherden, with their characteristic horned helmets, seem to be related with the island of Sardinia (and maybe also Corsica), either because they originated in Sardinia or migrated there after being defeated in Egypt and became assimilated by the local Nuragic population. The Peleset, another group of Sea Peoples with distinctive feathered helmets, are probably the same people referred to as “Philistines” in the Bible, which invaded Canaan and became enemies of the Israelites. The biblical giant Goliath was a Philistine. The Romans would later name the region of Palestine after them. Some historians have also tried to connect the Sea Peoples with migrations from continental Europe. They used long Naue II swords, which originated in the Alps and spread as far as Norway, Britain, Egypt and Mesopotamia, and Late Mycenaean short swords which were carried on the chest.
The articulated bronze armour of the warrior on the left and some other elements have been inspired by the amazing reconstructions of Dimitrios Katsikis (Hellenic Armors), based on the Egyptian reliefs of Medinet Habu. The leather armour of the warrior on the right, based on Egyptian representations, as well as the studded shield on the left, are roughly inspired by reconstructions from The Nuragic Foundry. The Naue II and the Late Mycenaean swords, as well as the spear, are replicas of archaeological finds made by Ørjan Engedal (The Bronze Age Warrior Series).
Egyptian representations of the Sea Peoples also usually represent them wearing jewellery, such as earrings, bracelets, and round medallions around their necks. Golden medallions matching those worn by the Sea Peoples in Egyptian art have been found in the territories of ancient Canaan. The warrior on the right (with the bronze armour) wears a pendant with a representation of the Canaanite / Phoenician goddess Astarte, based on a find from Tell el-Ajjul, in what is now the Gaza Strip. Egyptian art shows the Sea Peoples either clean-shaven or bearded. For the beard, I’ve gone with a Hittite-like style consisting of curls or locks, like West Asian fashions of the Bronze and Iron ages. "
ArtStation - Priest-King of the Indus, Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols
"
“PRIEST-KING” OF THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION or Harappan Civilization, located in the northwest of the Indian Subcontinent during the BRONZE AGE. Their language is unknown, their distinct script has not been deciphered yet, there is no evidence of a ruling class, nor an army, and we know almost nothing about their religion. What we know is that they built huge cities made of stone and bricks, and their sewage system was ahead of their time. We also know that the Harappan Civilization existed before the people that ancient Hindu texts call the “Aryans” migrated into India. The “Aryans” are identified with the Bronze Age steppe nomads that brought into India the Indo-European language that gave origin to Sanskrit, and they also contributed to the formation of Hinduism and the Varna system (usually translated in the West as “castes”).
All modern Indians descend from a mix of three ancestral populations. The earliest anatomically modern humans that migrated from Africa to Asia evolved into separate subgroups such as the Andamanese islanders, Melanesians, Aboriginal Australians or the Ainu of Japan, but the Indian subgroup of those early Homo Sapiens are known as Ancient Ancestral South Indians (AASI). South Indian tribes with unusually high levels of AASI ancestry, such as the isolated Paniyas and Irulas of Kerala, often have black skin, kinky hair, a wide nose and thick lips. The second population that migrated into India were related to the Neolithic farmers of Iran, of “Middle Eastern” appearance and swarthy complexion, whose language may have been related to Elamite and may be a precursor to the Dravidian languages spoken today in South India. Harappans descended from these Proto-Dravidians with up to 50% of AASI admixture, an admixture like that of the Toda people of Tamil Nadu. Unlike modern Indians, Harappans didn’t have any ancestry from the Eurasian Steppe. During the Late Bronze Age, while the Harappan Civilization was gradually collapsing, the expansion of Indo-Aryan-speakers brought an influx of European-like physical features into India, which became especially prevalent in the northwest and among higher castes during the subsequent Vedic Period."
"LIBYAN chieftain from the Late Bronze Age. The ancient Libyan tribes, of Berber / Amazigh origin, lived a nomadic and semi-nomadic life between the Mediterranean coast of North Africa and the oases of the Sahara, being the western nemesis of pharaonic Egypt. The Libyan tribes of the Libu (after whom the entire region of Libya was later named by the Greeks), the Meshwesh, the Temehu, the Tehenu and the Rebu, formed a coalition with some groups of the Sea Peoples such as the Sherden, and invaded Egypt on several occasions. Ramesses III (reigned from 1186 to 1155 BC) was one of the pharaohs that led successful military campaigns against the invading Libyans and their Sea People allies.
Ancient Egyptian art stereotypically represented the Libyans practically naked except for a loincloth and a cloak, both garments probably made of dyed and painted leather. Egyptian art often represents the cloaks of the Libyans having irregular patterns, that have been interpreted as either cow or giraffe hide. The Libyan in my illustration wears a cloak made of exotic giraffe hide, imported from south of the Sahara. Other common characteristics of the Libyans in Egyptian art are the ostrich feathers on their head, their elaborate hairstyles, and their tattoos. Sometimes they are also represented wearing some jewellery such as earrings, necklaces and ear studs. The most common weapon of the Libyans during the Bronze Age was the bow, with primitive stone-tipped arrows. Egyptian reliefs also suggest that some Libyans acquired southern European bronze swords from their Sea People allies during the campaigns against Egypt, as indigenous metallurgy in Libya was presumably very scarce. Another interesting feature of how the Libyans were portrayed in Egyptian art is their skin colour. Ancient Egyptian artists stereotypically represented Libyan warriors with light yellowish skin (the same skin colour they normally used for pale Egyptian women and for West Asians), in contrast with the dark reddish brown they used for the tanned Egyptian men, although representations of darker-skinned Libyans are also known, suggesting that tribes living further south were probably darker. "
ArtStation - Sherden warriors, Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols
"
SHERDEN WARRIORS, one of the groups that formed the pirates known as “SEA PEOPLES”, that contributed to the collapse of the LATE BRONZE AGE civilizations of the Eastern Mediterranean (all except Egypt, which successfully repelled them). The Sea Peoples are mostly known from two sources: the Old Testament and the inscriptions on temples made by the Egyptian pharaohs that fought against them, which are Ramesses II, Merneptah and Ramesses III. Ramesses II incorporated Sherden warriors to his own army, adding a Sun disc to their horned helmets. The Egyptian inscriptions credit the Sea Peoples alone for the destruction of the Hittite Empire and Canaan (which brought the Bronze Age to an end in the Middle East, as later civilizations started using more iron), and modern historians have also connected them with the destruction of Mycenaean Greece, but today it is believed that the Sea Peoples themselves were refugees fleeing from calamities in their lands of origin. The origin of the different groups of Sea Peoples has never been known, but based on the little information available, some possible origins have been proposed. It is believed that many of these pirates came from the islands of the Aegean Sea and the coast of Greece and Anatolia, but it is also likely than many came from the Levant. The Sherden, with their characteristic horned helmets, seem to be related with the island of Sardinia (and maybe also Corsica), either because they originated in Sardinia or migrated there after being defeated in Egypt and became assimilated by the local Nuragic population. The Peleset, another group of Sea Peoples with distinctive feathered helmets, are probably the same people referred to as “Philistines” in the Bible, which invaded Canaan and became enemies of the Israelites. The biblical giant Goliath was a Philistine. The Romans would later name the region of Palestine after them. Some historians have also tried to connect the Sea Peoples with migrations from continental Europe. They used long Naue II swords, which originated in the Alps and spread as far as Norway, Britain, Egypt and Mesopotamia, and Late Mycenaean short swords which were carried on the chest.
The articulated bronze armour of the warrior on the left and some other elements have been inspired by the amazing reconstructions of Dimitrios Katsikis (Hellenic Armors), based on the Egyptian reliefs of Medinet Habu. The leather armour of the warrior on the right, based on Egyptian representations, as well as the studded shield on the left, are roughly inspired by reconstructions from The Nuragic Foundry. The Naue II and the Late Mycenaean swords, as well as the spear, are replicas of archaeological finds made by Ørjan Engedal (The Bronze Age Warrior Series).
Egyptian representations of the Sea Peoples also usually represent them wearing jewellery, such as earrings, bracelets, and round medallions around their necks. Golden medallions matching those worn by the Sea Peoples in Egyptian art have been found in the territories of ancient Canaan. The warrior on the right (with the bronze armour) wears a pendant with a representation of the Canaanite / Phoenician goddess Astarte, based on a find from Tell el-Ajjul, in what is now the Gaza Strip. Egyptian art shows the Sea Peoples either clean-shaven or bearded. For the beard, I’ve gone with a Hittite-like style consisting of curls or locks, like West Asian fashions of the Bronze and Iron ages. "
ArtStation - Priest-King of the Indus, Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols
"
“PRIEST-KING” OF THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION or Harappan Civilization, located in the northwest of the Indian Subcontinent during the BRONZE AGE. Their language is unknown, their distinct script has not been deciphered yet, there is no evidence of a ruling class, nor an army, and we know almost nothing about their religion. What we know is that they built huge cities made of stone and bricks, and their sewage system was ahead of their time. We also know that the Harappan Civilization existed before the people that ancient Hindu texts call the “Aryans” migrated into India. The “Aryans” are identified with the Bronze Age steppe nomads that brought into India the Indo-European language that gave origin to Sanskrit, and they also contributed to the formation of Hinduism and the Varna system (usually translated in the West as “castes”).
All modern Indians descend from a mix of three ancestral populations. The earliest anatomically modern humans that migrated from Africa to Asia evolved into separate subgroups such as the Andamanese islanders, Melanesians, Aboriginal Australians or the Ainu of Japan, but the Indian subgroup of those early Homo Sapiens are known as Ancient Ancestral South Indians (AASI). South Indian tribes with unusually high levels of AASI ancestry, such as the isolated Paniyas and Irulas of Kerala, often have black skin, kinky hair, a wide nose and thick lips. The second population that migrated into India were related to the Neolithic farmers of Iran, of “Middle Eastern” appearance and swarthy complexion, whose language may have been related to Elamite and may be a precursor to the Dravidian languages spoken today in South India. Harappans descended from these Proto-Dravidians with up to 50% of AASI admixture, an admixture like that of the Toda people of Tamil Nadu. Unlike modern Indians, Harappans didn’t have any ancestry from the Eurasian Steppe. During the Late Bronze Age, while the Harappan Civilization was gradually collapsing, the expansion of Indo-Aryan-speakers brought an influx of European-like physical features into India, which became especially prevalent in the northwest and among higher castes during the subsequent Vedic Period."