Järn vs Hjältarnas tid

[runequester]

Apologies for English.Feel free to respond in English or Swedish as you prefer.

Is there a decent overview of these games compared to each other? Looking at the books I got in the mail, they look very similar and I believe were derived from each other?

Are there obvious advantages to starting with one over the other and how easy is it to transfer material between them or to learn one when you start with the other?
Myself and my group are well versed in BRP based systems, if that helps.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Leon]

Jag har inte gjort någon grundlig jämförelse, men rent generellt är Järn det mer avancerade spelet, med regler för att bygga sin egen klan, för djurtotem, mer avancerade stridsregler etc etc.

Hjältarnas tid är en nedtrimmad och slimmad variant som är tänkt att vara mer nybörjarvänligt. Det är "Smitt av Järn" - det vill säga bygger på Järns regelmotor.

Mycket av logiken, färdigheter etc är liknande. Samtidigt saknas en del element från Järn i HT, och rollpersoner skapas på olika sätt.

 

[runequester]

Paging through Järn I got a heavy tribal Runequest vibe from it, while HT seemed a bit more generic fantasy in feeling.

Is that a fair assessment?

 

[Leon]

Paging through Järn I got a heavy tribal Runequest vibe from it, while HT seemed a bit more generic fantasy in feeling.

Is that a fair assessment?

Beror på vad du menar med RQ, men ja, Järn är definitivt mer culture gaming med härlig fornnordisk mytkänsla. Hjältarnas tid är mycket enklare äventyrsfantasy, med sagokänsla.

 

[runequester]

I think culture gaming was probably the term I was looking for, yeah.

 

[Theo]

Stridssystemen är också rätt olika även om grundmotorn är densamma. Järn har ett komplexare system med sina "stanser" i strid - jag körde ett tag med dem i mitt eget BRP-hack, de var roliga och gav striden karaktär men var också tidsödande, införde ett extra lager av abstraktion och krånglade till turordningen i stort, så i slutändan övergav jag dem - och det finns även subtilare skillnader; i HT gör t ex vapen ofta mer skada medan rustningar skyddar sämre, så anfall är starkare relativt försvar i HT än i Järn. (Om jag minns rätt är detta ett avsiktligt designval för att göra striderna snabbare.) I HT kan man också försvara sig mot hur många anfall som helst så är man bara kompetent är det inte alls lika jobbigt att vara i numerärt underläge som i Järn.

 

[Leon]

I HT kan man också försvara sig mot hur många anfall som helst så är man bara kompetent är det inte alls lika jobbigt att vara i numerärt underläge som i Järn.

Vi har trixat lite med det här till Kopparhavets hjältar. Det vi landat i är att varje extra försvarsslag efter det första kumulativt stängs två snäpp.

Dock kan man skaffa en förmåga som gör att man slipper det minuset.

 

[Theo]

Vi har trixat lite med det här till Kopparhavets hjältar. Det vi landat i är att varje extra försvarsslag efter det första kumulativt stängs två snäpp.

Dock kan man köpa en förmåga som gör att man slipper det minuset.

Mm, jag har experimenterat med det här i mitt eget hack också. Senast har jag kört med ungefär samma sak, att varje "reaktion" (försvar samt, i vissa fall, opportunistiska motattacker) efter den första i rundan blir svårare och svårare. Jag har dock börjat klura på om det är knöligt att komma ihåg hur många gånger man reagerat i en komplex strid, så funderar på att helt enkelt bara säga: två försvarsslag per runda, punkt - varav max ett för varje vapen/sköld du håller i (i övrigt kan man ducka med Manövrer).

 

[Leon]

Mm, jag har experimenterat med det här i mitt eget hack också. Senast har jag kört med ungefär samma sak, att varje "reaktion" (försvar samt, i vissa fall, opportunistiska motattacker) efter den första i rundan blir svårare och svårare. Jag har dock börjat klura på om det är knöligt att komma ihåg hur många gånger man reagerat i en komplex strid, så funderar på att helt enkelt bara säga: två försvarsslag per runda, punkt - varav max ett för varje vapen/sköld du håller i (i övrigt kan man ducka med Manövrer).

Vi tänker att det inte är så blodigt om det inte alltid efterlevs 100% - det viktiga är egentligen principen att många försvarsslag ger minus

 

[runequester]

Vi har trixat lite med det här till Kopparhavets hjältar. Det vi landat i är att varje extra försvarsslag efter det första kumulativt stängs två snäpp.

Dock kan man skaffa en förmåga som gör att man slipper det minuset.

Thats reminiscent of Harn where repeated defense rolls are at -20 each time.

though in most games, it is rather rare for a character to be attacked by more than 2-3 opponents I think.

 

[runequester]

Maybe I can use this thread to ask a couple of rules questions for HT as well if you guys dont mind.

A: I was going to ask how many times you can defend in one round but from the conversation above, it seems the rulebook answer is "as often as you get attacked" ? (Provided you are able to defend).

B: If I roll an exceptional success on my defense, the bonus to Gard happens after the attack damage is applied? Just making sure I am reading that right.

C: When assigning the bonus dice during character creation, do we assign all the dice and then roll or can you assign a couple, roll and then decide where to assign the next ones?

If there's no clear answer, how do you do it?

D: The bonus dice from your "folk". Do they get added alongside the bonus dice in C, or do you roll those first, then assign the 20 bonus dice?


I must say I am super stoked about running this for my american friends.

 

[Mogger]

A: I was going to ask how many times you can defend in one round but from the conversation above, it seems the rulebook answer is "as often as you get attacked" ? (Provided you are able to defend).

Yes, thats correct.

B: If I roll an exceptional success on my defense, the bonus to Gard happens after the attack damage is applied? Just making sure I am reading that right.

Yes, however you could just add 1D6 to your defence or subtract from Harm instead. It would make more sense and easier to remember.

C: When assigning the bonus dice during character creation, do we assign all the dice and then roll or can you assign a couple, roll and then decide where to assign the next ones?

Assaing all, then roll.

D: The bonus dice from your "folk". Do they get added alongside the bonus dice in C, or do you roll those first, then assign the 20 bonus dice?

Assign all, then roll

 

[Krille]

Is there a decent overview of these games compared to each other? Looking at the books I got in the mail, they look very similar and I believe were derived from each other?

They are related: Järn was made first, and HT derived from it and intended as a light fantasy introduction game. They are almost fully compatible: weapons damage is 1d6 higher in HT (to get faster fights), Järn also has the Soul health stats for social conflicts, and the skill lists for player characters differ to reflect the iron age setting in Järn and the fantasy adventuring in HT. Other than that, you can take stats from one game and use in the other, especially for NPCs.

Fights run differently: Järn use cards to select a hidden stance which is then revealed, which works wonderful in duels, but not so well in fighting a hoard of goblins or a giant monster. HT uses a normal round with initiative and actions, which is not so nice in duels but work great against monsters.

Magic is also different: in Järn, you summon and negotiate with spirits to have them do you a favour, while HT is a normal mana point based spell system.

Järn also has a system for social conflicts, like the ting, negotiations, arguments, debates and so on.

Are there obvious advantages to starting with one over the other and how easy is it to transfer material between them or to learn one when you start with the other?
Myself and my group are well versed in BRP based systems, if that helps.

I think you play them as they are. One is not the introduction to the other, but rather they are two related but different games.

With Järn, I was originally aiming for a system which I could use to play Snösaga/Snowsaga from Drakar&Demoner Trudvang/Trudvang Chronicles without throwing a fit. Eventually, that grew to a clan-based iron-age player created setting. The players not only make characters, but also their clan and its surrounding, creating a relation map which the gamemaster then use to find conflicts to build adventure around. It is much more about culture gaming, living the clan life, creating intrigues and participating in the creation of the shared story.

HT has a different aim: it's supposed to be a light fantasy game for beginners and the beginners' parents, so it doesn't demand the players to create the world and has much more conventional adventures.

I think that Järn is the more demanding of the two and requires more mature players, but as it was first, it is also rough at the corners and not as refined.

Or to put it this way: in Järn, you build a clan together, be it Norse, Saxons, Mongols or Franks, and then you build a Njal's Saga or Nibelungenlied around that. In HT, you play a Samurai, a Troll witch, a Cossack and an Elf thief and then you have an adventure. Style-wise, they are not quite compatible, even if it is very easy to use stats in one game for the other.

 

[runequester]

That both explains it perfectly and if I hadnt just bought both, I'd be buying them now based on this

in Järn, you build a clan together, be it Norse, Saxons, Mongols or Franks, and then you build a Njal's Saga or Nibelungenlied around that. In HT, you play a Samurai, a Troll witch, a Cossack and an Elf thief and then you have an adventure

 

[runequester]

Also, and this may be just a language issue for me, but can someone give an example of when you would roll Leta instead of Spana and vice versa for skills?

 

[Theo]

Also, and this may be just a language issue for me, but can someone give an example of when you would roll Leta instead of Spana and vice versa for skills?

In old Runequest terms, I'd say Spana is equivalent to Listen and Scan, while Leta is equivalent to Search.

 

[Leon]

Also, and this may be just a language issue for me, but can someone give an example of when you would roll Leta instead of Spana and vice versa for skills?

Leta är något du gör aktivt och a priori i din omedelbara närhet - för att hitta en fälla, en hemlig dörr eller liknande. Spana är över ett större område, kanske i öppna landskap, och kan användas passivt - dvs för att se om du ser dammmolnet vid horisonten eller en siluett som smyger över taken.

 

[Bolongo]

Or in D&D terms, it's the difference between Perception and Investigation.

 

[runequester]

Perfect, thanks gang!

 

[runequester]

If I may also ask a few questions about Järn:

There are two skill Bonusval that let you recover Gard and Hälsa respectively, but I am not certain how that is meant to work.
Does it kick in when the character attempts the skill for a regular use? Can someone give an example of what this might look like in game?

Can you raise Gard and Hälsa? HT has a roll for improving Gard but I am not finding it in Järn though I may be looking in the wrong spot.
For that matter can Hälsa go up in HT?

Can I learn a Fördjupning with experience even if my skill hasnt reached 60, 90 or another threshold where I'd normally get one during character creation?

For that matter, if my skill goes from 57 to 60 in play, do I get a Fördjupning for free ?

Thanks!
As always, feel free to respond in Swedish or English, whichever is easier.