Troberg
Sinister eater
- Joined
- 27 Jun 2001
- Messages
- 17,656
Som ett inlägg i debatten kring könsdiskriminerande spel vill jag posta följande pärlor från Generica.
Titta här vilken lam undanförklaring för en manscentrisk vinkling:
Hur drar man egentligen gränsen och när övertolkar man bara för att göra en poäng om ett spels sexism? Vad är OK? Vad tycker kvinnorna här om sexism i spel (det är trots allt i första hand deras fråga att tycka om)? Stör det att kvinnliga karaktärer har andra (inte nödvändigtvis sämre) förutsättningar och stereotyper i en viss värld, eller tillför det något?
Vi kan ju iofs utöka frågan till att täcka även rasism, sexuella läggningar, religion och andra minoritetsfrågor också (jag vet att kvinnor inte är en minoritet, men sexismfrågan är besläktad till minoritetsfrågan). Religion om något blir ju manglat i rollspel, för att inte tala om hur olika raser klassas in i fack. Är det fel att ha en korrekt historisk syn på sexuell läggning i kulturer där avvikelser från "standardnormen" varit farliga att ha (tex nazityskland, dagens Iran, häxprocessmedeltiden osv)? Är det fel att ha med slaveri i en spelvärld? Prostitution? Gladiatorspel?
Kan det rentav vara så att genom att ha med det i spelvärlden så skapar man en ökad insikt i problemen och därmed faktiskt hjälper till att eliminera dem? Rollspel är trots allt att gå 1,6 km i någon annans skor.
Jag vet inte riktigt vart diskussionen bör leda, så rocka loss med en fri diskussion kring ämnet så ser vi var vi hamnar!
Titta här vilken lam undanförklaring för en manscentrisk vinkling:
Detta exempel som brutalt stänger män ute från vissa funktioner i vissa folkslags samhälle:The reasons for the use of ‘he’ and the variations of that word are purely practical. To use ‘he/she’ everywhere would not be practical nor had benefited the reader, so one form to be chosen. The male form was chosen due to two reasons. The first reason is that roleplaying is still, sadly enough, a predominantly male hobby. The other reason is much more practical; the male forms are in most cases one letter shorter, thus saving some space. All other things being equal, the male pronouns were chosen.
This should of course not be interpreted as a statement regarding female role players. It is simply a matter of readability; consider each ‘he’ as an implied ‘he/she’.
Eller det här exemplet med könsstereotyper med män som våldsamma krigare som dödar kvinnliga offer urskiljningslöst:A female shaman of a barbarian tribe may have her mana recharge coupled to her menstrual cycle, having the mana tally reduced to zero once a month. This is a SLOW MANA RECHARGE combined with COMPLETE MANA RECHARGE and AUTOMATIC MANA RECHARGE RITUAL.
Titta här hur man frossar i sexistiska förebilder:Advancing through a French village, an example of the importance of combat experience.
During the late stages of the Second World War, a small squad is carefully advancing through a French village, searching for remaining German troops.
The squad has three members:
Machinegun Joe. He has fought through the entire war and is harder than an iron stove.
Private Brown. Has been in the war since D-day and seen combat on a couple of occasions since.
Rookie Green. He is fresh from training, a training that was cut short due to the need for troops. He has never seen combat.
When advancing on the village, they suddenly come under fire. This is how each of them experiences it:
Machinegun Joe notices one machinegun and a sniper behind a low wall on the left side of the road and a handful of riflemen in a barn to the right. He dives into the ditch, fires a burst at the troops on the left to keep them down, and then hurls a grenade into the barn.
Private Brown realises they are in crossfire and dives for cover. He is not sure how many they are or exactly where the fire comes from. So, he squeezes off a couple of rounds to make the enemy nervous until he can spot them, knowing that he is relatively safe in the cover of the ditch.
Rookie Green doesn’t know what is happening. Bullets are flying everywhere. Since they are moving towards the village, he assumes the fire is coming from the village. The player declares that he will lie down flat on the road this turn and open fire, full automatic until the gun is empty, at the closest house. During the action of the first turn, the game master informs the players that a civilian woman runs out of the house. Rookie Green is too panicked to notice who it is and open fire at her as it was declared earlier.
Vad sägs om det här exemplet om psionics, som inte bara framställer kvinnan som ett lättskrämt och hjälplöst offer, det innehåller dessutom rasistiska element:Typical dependents are Popeye’s Olive Oyl
Mer utläggningar om kvinnans roll som sexobjekt och hur hon bör förhålla sig till den, återigen i samband med psionics.Another psychic, Laura, a young black woman in the heart of Dixie during the 1920’s is being refused service in a roadside diner. The staff as well as the guests starts to ridicule her. She is a telekinetic, and as the situation starts to get threatening and demeaning, she tries to fight her anger. She can see the big knife in the kitchen starting to tremble as she tries to remain calm. Suddenly she panics and runs out the door, windows, plates, glasses and bottles exploding behind her as she runs away crying.
Naturligtvis skulle inte denna misogynastiska encyklopedia vara komplett utan en man som utnyttjar sin sekreterare sexuellt. Även detta från psionics:Remember, though, that accuracy in this case is to accurately perform what the subconscious wants, which is often not what the conscious thinks is a good idea. The subconscious of a telekinetic girl in a diner may think it is an excellent idea to very accurately jab a fork into the eye of the man who keeps staring at her breasts, even though she consciously knows it is a bad idea.
Självklart så anses också skeva kroppsideal för kvinnor vara normala:Two perspectives of a mind reading, an example of how telepathic receive can appear.
George is sitting in a diner when he notices a man sitting at another table looking at him with an odd smile. George vaguely remembers his face, but can’t remember where he has seen it. Suddenly he remembers seeing him at the office where George works earlier in the day, then remembers seeing him on the bus to work. Then George gets a memory flashback of the man sitting at George’s breakfast table in his kitchen, then another flashback of the man standing in the shower while George is showering the very same morning, then he even remembers him sitting by the bed as he woke up this morning. Even though he understands that the memory cannot be correct, the memories are so clear and real that he does not know how to handle it. He panics and runs out of the diner, spilling his coffee and toppling a waitress on his way out. The man looks a bit shaken when this happens, but collects himself and finishes his meal before leaving.
The strange man, Jacob, is of course a telepath listening to George’s thoughts. He can’t control what he will see in George’s mind, he just tags along wherever the thoughts may wander. As George goes over his day trying to remember, Jacob will be listening and will appear in the memory images. He will get a flood of random thoughts along the line, irritation about George’s boss, fantasies about his secretary, fear about the gang on the bus and of course, the increasing bewilderment and horror that George feels during the mind read. He is somewhat used to this torrent of impressions as he has seen it many times before, but even so catches some of it as George’s panic gets overwhelming and he runs out of the diner. Of course, what he sees is not necessarily what George experienced, it is filtered through the subconscious of both of them, as well as being the memory of what George has experienced, which may be wrong or distorted. There is also a heavy symbolism, so he may punch the boss, what may be only a fantasy about the secretary may be a hot lovemaking session, the gang on the bus may be seen as hyenas and so on.
Mer könsstereotyper för att uppmana pojkar att bli våldsamma och känslokalla kvinnomisshandlare när de växer upp:Cybernetics like breast implants, coloured contact lenses, and hair implants are becoming commonplace and it is no longer considered strange to use technology to improve the body.
Om inte det här exemplet innehåller någon dold sexism så vet jag inte vad som gör det:Max Spade, the tough private investigator, is going to get a weapon. He wants a revolver with some stopping power, yet still small enough to carry in a concealed shoulder holster. He gets a medium revolver, rolls the stats for this particular model, and decides that the model is called Colt Detective 38 Special. He buys it, buys a box of ammo that he puts in his coat pocket and goes back out in the rain.
Asiatiska kvinnor och kåta babianer, kan det bli värre?Suzy starts to make a lot of noise to attract the worm.
Titta vilken lista över falliska vapen. Inte ett enda vulviskt vapen. Hur ska tjejer kunna identifiera sig med ett sådant spel?Sukiyaki is a mysterious kung fu heroine who beats up the yakuza on a regular basis using the ancient “Horny baboon” kung fu style, which has been handed down through her family for generations. There doesn’t seem to be any known defence against it.
Sure, in real life, it makes no sense, but this is a game and the player has spent a lot of points into the martial art. The game master thinks it fits into the game, so it works in the game. After all, “Horny baboon kung fu” is just a name for a way to express the intention of beating someone up, in game terms it is not different from other martial arts. The only difference is that Sukiyaki does it with her own distinct style, something that adds to the flavour and mood of the game.
Fler exempel baserade på hjältar med en skev kvinnosyn:Knife
Shortsword
Rapier / Sabre
Longsword
Two-handed sword
Axe
Halberd / Polearms
Spear / Trident
Pike
Lance (used mounted)
Club / Mace / Warhammer
Staff
Och naturligtvis är det inte den gamla tanten, kvinnan i gruppen, som är riddaren, utan hon har typiska kökssysslor och underliga föreställningar:A knockout blow in a saloon brawl is probably a chair over the back of the head, while the same blow in a karate action game is a perfect jump kick to the jaw sending the opponent flying across the tables. A serious gunshot wound to the arm in a realistic Vietnam scenario would probably be a bloody mess with the victim screaming in pain, while the same wound in a Zorro swashbuckling adventure would hurt the hero, forcing him to withdraw and hide the bandage to protect his secret identity. A wound that would kill a henchman in a James Bond scenario would probably only result in a knockout when Zorro did it.
Det här exemplet behöver väl knappast någon kommentar:A group of three characters is attacked by three bandits. The characters are a big knight in shining armour, a sneaky thief, and an old lady who bakes good cookies and occasionally get strange visions.
Mer "Män slåss, kvinnor är sexobjekt":When the big bad guy walks into the room, the big good guy have to fight him and fight for his life, while the spoiled girl can just grab an object close at hand, perhaps a bunch of tulips, and bash him with. The big bad guy will not focus on killing her, since his main adversary is the big good guy, so he’ll probably just throw her aside and continue towards the big good guy. The spoiled girl can play her character as far as she wants, phoning dad, throwing easily breakable objects towards the big bad guy, whining about her messed up dress and so on.
The big good guy probably accomplices more, but who has the most fun?
Vilken världsbild tyder det här på:Zorro always have time to carve a Z and blow a kiss to senorita Escalante.
Naturligtvis måste det vara en man med en fallossymbol...This means that you should not be afraid to include things that are considered wrong in our world if they create the result you want.
Mer sexistiskt bildspråk:What is the ruling structure? The man with the biggest weapon?
Kvinnor som lättlurade sexdrivna verktyg:Just think about a Victorian lady stranded on an island where grass shirts are the only clothes, or the elven traveller who comes to a city where green is the traditional colour of clothing for prostitutes.
Kvinnor som handelsvara:Why assassinate a president if you can get a female agent close to him and have her talk about their sexual adventures, letting media do the assassination? Why even use a female agent in that role if you have another agent in a position where he can select who gets the job and can select an unwitting person with a personality and the looks that makes it a highly probable chain of events?
Å andra sidan så kan det här ju vara en drös citat lösryckta ur sitt sammanhang eller formulerade för att ge populärkulturella referenser och inte alls menade att vara sexistiska. Överreagerar jag bara på den här stinkande högen av mansgrisig kvinnofientlig sexism?If the hero wins, make sure he gets the princess and the kingdom.
Hur drar man egentligen gränsen och när övertolkar man bara för att göra en poäng om ett spels sexism? Vad är OK? Vad tycker kvinnorna här om sexism i spel (det är trots allt i första hand deras fråga att tycka om)? Stör det att kvinnliga karaktärer har andra (inte nödvändigtvis sämre) förutsättningar och stereotyper i en viss värld, eller tillför det något?
Vi kan ju iofs utöka frågan till att täcka även rasism, sexuella läggningar, religion och andra minoritetsfrågor också (jag vet att kvinnor inte är en minoritet, men sexismfrågan är besläktad till minoritetsfrågan). Religion om något blir ju manglat i rollspel, för att inte tala om hur olika raser klassas in i fack. Är det fel att ha en korrekt historisk syn på sexuell läggning i kulturer där avvikelser från "standardnormen" varit farliga att ha (tex nazityskland, dagens Iran, häxprocessmedeltiden osv)? Är det fel att ha med slaveri i en spelvärld? Prostitution? Gladiatorspel?
Kan det rentav vara så att genom att ha med det i spelvärlden så skapar man en ökad insikt i problemen och därmed faktiskt hjälper till att eliminera dem? Rollspel är trots allt att gå 1,6 km i någon annans skor.
Jag vet inte riktigt vart diskussionen bör leda, så rocka loss med en fri diskussion kring ämnet så ser vi var vi hamnar!