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Rymdhamster

ɹǝʇsɯɐɥpɯʎɹ
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Jag har heller aldrig riktigt förstått varför tron på spöken och tron på vetenskap skulle vara ömsesidigt uteslutande. Det går alldeles utmärkt att kombinera.

/Edit: Hemligheten är att även om man accepterar existensen av spöken så ska man aldrig sluta leta efter den naturliga förklaringen. Drar det kallt hela tiden? Fine, anlita en exorsist, men titta även över tätningen runt fönster och dörrar =)
 

Cassius

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För min del handlar det om att det blir en obehagligt sätt att se på människan. Att vi skulle ha en själ som var separerade från våra kroppar. Platon var en sopa.
 

Radioaktiv

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<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4Ry140q1a6A"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4Ry140q1a6A" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

"Throughout history, every mystery, ever solved, has turned out to be: Not magic."

Om inte annat så är videon ganska underhållande :gremsmile:

Nu menar jag inte att idiotförklara någon, och de finns saker vi inte löst än. Men jag tror inte att de mysterier vi inte lyckats lösa än kommer att visa på att det finns själar, till exempel. My opinion, not forcing it on anyone.
 

Rymdhamster

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Radioaktiv said:
Om inte annat så är videon ganska underhållande :gremsmile:
Underbar video! (Och "Storm" är precis en sån person som ger oss vidskepliga, småreligiösa drömmare dåligt rykte)

*Tittar på videon en gång till*
 

Cassius

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The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower.
 

Rymdhamster

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Radioaktiv said:
Vidskeplighet har jag fortfarande inte lyckats skaka av mig helt.
Yes, I can feel the taint within you. It is not to late for you to return to the dark side!
 

God45

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St. Thomas Aquinas sätt att bevisa Guds existens utan man behöver uppleva den själv:

The Argument of the Unmoved Mover


The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.



The Argument of the First Cause


The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.



The Argument from Contingency


The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence – which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God


The Argument from Degree

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But “more” and “less” are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii.[3] Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.


The Teleological Argument

The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.
 

krank

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Cassius said:
För min del handlar det om att det blir en obehagligt sätt att se på människan. Att vi skulle ha en själ som var separerade från våra kroppar. Platon var en sopa.
Det är inte den enda anledningen för mig, men absolut - separationen kropp och själ avskyr jag nästan lika mycket som "naturligt" och "onaturligt"...
 

Rymdhamster

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Man måste ju inte tro på att det finns en separation mellan kropp och själ bara för att man tror på själar =)
 

krank

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God45 said:
St. Thomas Aquinas sätt att bevisa Guds existens utan man behöver uppleva den själv:

Så.... Thomas förstod sig inte på begreppet "oändlighet" eller på hur djur funkar, och tyckte därför att det måste finnas en gud. Strålande.

Alla hans bevis baserar sig i princip på "eftersom vi inte vet, så fyller vi hålrummet med gud". And that's just silly.
 

krank

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Rymdhamster said:
Man måste ju inte tro på att det finns en separation mellan kropp och själ bara för att man tror på själar =)
För att det ska kunna finnas en själ måste den vara separat från kroppen, om det ska kunna finnas spöken.

Själv tror jag inte på själar överhuvudtaget; vi är biologiska maskiner som agerar i enlighet med biologisk och social programmering.
 

Radioaktiv

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Man måste ju inte tro på att det finns en separation mellan kropp och själ bara för att man tror på själar =)
Det där sade en präst till mig när jag var liten, varpå jag frågade vart i kroppen den satt någonstans.

Han bara flinade. Dryga jävel :gremsmile:
 

Rymdhamster

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krank said:
För att det ska kunna finnas en själ måste den vara separat från kroppen, om det ska kunna finnas spöken.
Inte mer än vad din lever, så länge du lever (puns, I love those!). Att sen själen är en bit av din kropp som fortsätter existera när din kropp slutar göra det är en annan femma, men så länge du lever behöver det inte finnas någon separation alls.
 

Rymdhamster

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Hehe, detta är en anledning till att jag dyker kyrkan borde vara mycket mer drivande i forskning. Om de ska påstå saker och ting får de väl för tusan försöka lista ut hur de faktiskt funkar också =
 

Radioaktiv

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Anledningen till att de inte gör det torde väl vara att de inte kommer att hitta något som stöder deras teorier. Och det vet de.
 

Radioaktiv

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För övrigt. Uppskattas diskussionen om spökens vara eller icke-vara av trådstartaren? Eller anser trådstartaren att det är för OT? Vill du bara ha erfarenheter?

/Radioaktiv, lika bra att vara säker.
 

Rymdhamster

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Jag skulle säga att det enda som man kan säga säkert är att om de inte letar kommer de aldrig hitta något :gremlaugh:
 

Radioaktiv

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Tja, om man är så rädd för att få sina axiom ifrågasatta att man bräde folk i flera hundra år, och man i dagens läge har många fundamentalister som bara avfärdar stora delar av vetenskapen som "just a theory", well, då har man väl gjort sitt ställningstagande.

Nu menar jag inte att detta gäller alla kristna. Inte ens majoriteten. Men när skolor i USA använder bibel som studiematerial i Intelligent Design eller vad det nu må vara, vad skall man tänka?
 
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