Why Sverige got an RPG industry and Danmark did not

Ivan NWG

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246
I always wondered why Danes never built a real RPG industry. There has been various attempts over the years to explain it, many of them pretty poor so I guess this is my thinking about it (also poor, since I still have covid). I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

After all we are culturally very similar, both countries had a high standard of living, high levels of education, a tradition of teenagers having "hobbies" and spending money, general public support for youth clubs, strong cultures for reading and libraries etc.

And roleplaying games DID become huge with Denmark, the convention scene became famous for a reason. But an industry? It never happened. Not really.

Some possibilities:

1:
Danes think the Danish language is lame.
Its not that we aren't proud of being Danes but basically anything in Danish tends to get viewed as being a bit "kikset": Goofy and a bit embarrassing perhaps even. Danish bands often sing in English and I always felt part of this affected games as well. I remember picking up the Fusion detective RPG and our group thinking it was funny that it was in Danish because it seemed so weird.

I've always felt (but could be wrong!) that Swedes put more emphasis on their own language. I remember as a teenager reading about how Swedish computer magazines often had Swedish words for things where we would end up using the English loan words instead.

So perhaps we were more minded to just go for the English option. After all, if it was in English, it must be cool.

2:
A population advantage.
Sweden is a small country but it is JUST a little bigger than Norway or Denmark population wise. I wonder if that difference had an effect?
After all more players means more people to play with, more people to enter the industry or make their own games, more people making stuff for conventions etc.
Perhaps there is a degree of critical mass where once you have JUST a bit over that 5 million people or whatever, it starts picking up steam and if you don't reach that point, you are likely never going to get there?

3:
Maybe we just got pre-empted?
Its of course possible that there just was not a point. Our translation of DoD is the only game that got big enough to be in book stores and was fairly widely played, so why make another one? The gaming stores have books from TSR, Games Workshop and White Wolf (later) so why make another one?
I remember as a little kid being in a gaming store in Viborg and gazing at games like Blood Bowl and Runequest with the store clerk explaining to like ... 9 year old me that Runequest was the game to play. I didn't understand any of it but I knew it was the coolest thing I had ever seen in my entire life.
(actually that store guy was the coolest guy too. He let me hang out in the store in the afternoons and let me ask questions and read books and he really didn't have to, and at a really difficult time in my little life. Thank you store guy. )

4:
Maybe we are all fucking hipsters.
The Danish scene famously revolved around convention games with the main magazine catering to that crowd. And while conventions had plenty of commercial games being played, the emphasis was very much of minimalist/non system semi-LARP scenarios that did not require (and often disdained the idea of) a rulebook.

Of course Denmark also developed a thriving LARP scene too.


So I dont know. What do you think? Why DID Sweden blow up with RPGs?
 

Frederik J. Jensen

Thoughtful Dane
Joined
16 May 2014
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278
Location
Stockholm
25% VAT on books?
A coincidence?
First movers in dk happened to be social democrats not capitalists?

Danes have done other cool things in RPGs, success is not measured in units sold. I’d said get a broader perspective and appreciate that the world is moved forward by individuals acting in inspired communities whether commercial or not.

We loved playing Fusion. It feels like we are living in the world of Fusion right now.
 

Ivan NWG

Warrior
Joined
8 Aug 2023
Messages
246
25% VAT on books?
A coincidence?
First movers in dk happened to be social democrats not capitalists?

Danes have done other cool things in RPGs, success is not measured in units sold. I’d said get a broader perspective and appreciate that the world is moved forward by individuals acting in inspired communities whether commercial or not.

We loved playing Fusion. It feels like we are living in the world of Fusion right now.
Oh dont get me wrong, a lot of world class stuff came out of the scene and still does. And there is of course the opposite version of this question too :)
Its just very interesting to me when two groups that are so similar, turn out so differently,
 

krank

Lättkränkt cancelkultur-kommunist
Joined
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Rissne
1:
Danes think the Danish language is lame.
Its not that we aren't proud of being Danes but basically anything in Danish tends to get viewed as being a bit "kikset": Goofy and a bit embarrassing perhaps even. Danish bands often sing in English and I always felt part of this affected games as well. I remember picking up the Fusion detective RPG and our group thinking it was funny that it was in Danish because it seemed so weird.

I've always felt (but could be wrong!) that Swedes put more emphasis on their own language. I remember as a teenager reading about how Swedish computer magazines often had Swedish words for things where we would end up using the English loan words instead.

So perhaps we were more minded to just go for the English option. After all, if it was in English, it must be cool.
Njae, jag skulle säga att svenskar absolut tycker att svenska är töntigt. Och så har det varit åtminstone så länge jag levt. Att datormagasin envisades med att ha svenska termer innebar ju inte att vi som hade datorintresse använde dem. Tvärtom är det nog bara bland första generationens datorlärare som de gamla svenska termerna från Datatermgruppen lever kvar. Vi andra har använt engelskans termer hela tiden.


Så jag tror nog som @God45 att det i rätt hög grad var slump. Rätt personer råkade träffa rätt personer och ha rätt förutsättningar.
 

Gamiel

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Stockholm
Njae, jag skulle säga att svenskar absolut tycker att svenska är töntigt. Och så har det varit åtminstone så länge jag levt. Att datormagasin envisades med att ha svenska termer innebar ju inte att vi som hade datorintresse använde dem. Tvärtom är det nog bara bland första generationens datorlärare som de gamla svenska termerna från Datatermgruppen lever kvar. Vi andra har använt engelskans termer hela tiden.
Enligt Näst sista ordet (Yles språkpodd) är vi svenskar faktiskt mycket bättre på att hitta på egna ord för nya saker där danskarna bara importerar de anglikanska orden direkt.
 

Ymir

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Something I've always found interesting is that Denmark seems to have a much stronger comic books culture than Sweden, in particular when it comes to translations, with lots of great Franco-Belgian comics translated into Danish. There's never really been a Swedish comic book artist on par with Peter Madsen and his Valhall books. Almost all talent in Swedish comics were for decades focused in the team who made the Phantom comic book, and only recently have some new translations of Franco-Belgian comics finally begun to appear - but the Danish catalogue still beats us by a mile.

Of course, it's still possible to argue that Sweden has been better than Denmark at actually producing comic books (Sweden has double the population after all), but I don't know, the interest certainly seems bigger in Denmark - the comic book selection at Faraos Cigarer in Copenhagen is far superior to anything you'll find in Sweden.

Just something I tought was interesting, and perhaps tangentially relevant to this subject.
 
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Ymir

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I think coincidence plays a large part. Sometimes, for quite vague reasons, the time and place is just right for something. China had a fantastic wave of filmmakers from around 1990-2010, and then it just kinda stopped. Denmark, similarly, had a famous wave of filmmakers during the Dogma movement. French music was extremely influential in the 60s and 70s. Japanese horror films where all the rage for a while. The troubadour movement in Occitania changed European music forever in the 12th century, but eventually came to an end.

This doesn't mean that there wasn't reasons for all these successful movements, but they can be quite hard to unpack. But that also means that it's impossible to say why Denmark didn't have a vibrant roleplaying game production - because the normal situation is to not have one. Almost no country does. A much more fruitful approach might be to explore the reasons why Sweden had it, and indeed still has, and then see whether those factors where indeed not present in Denmark in the same way.

It's abundantly clear that Sweden is a statistical outlier here, the only non-English speaking country in the world to regularly produce internationally successful roleplaying games.
 

Ivan NWG

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Joined
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Something I've always found interesting is that Denmark seems to have a much stronger comic books culture than Sweden, in particular when it comes to translations, with lots of great Franco-Belgian comics translated into Danish. There's never really been a Swedish comic book artist on par with Peter Madsen and his Valhall books. Almost all talent in Swedish comics were for decades focused in the team who made the Phantom comic book, and only recently have some new translations of Franco-Belgian comics finally begun to appear - but the Danish catalogue still beats us by a mile.

Of course, it's still possible to argue that Sweden has been better than Denmark at actually producing comic books (Sweden has double the population after all), but I don't know, the interest certainly seems bigger in Denmark - the comic book selection at Faraos Cigarer in Copenhagen is far superior to anything you'll find in Sweden.

Just something I tought was interesting, and perhaps tangentially relevant to this subject.
This rings very true and is also a great question!
 

Ymir

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Another interesting tidbit. I'm a video game designer looking for work. These are basically the only countries where I ever find significant gaming studios that have been founded in that country and are not subsidiaries of a studio based elsewhere:

USA, Canada, China, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Poland, Germany, Spain, Czech Republic, UK, Russia (most have recently moved to Cyprus), Japan, South Korea.

There are random tiny mobile game studios everywhere, and some subsidiaries in more unusual places, but major developers of big games or internationally successful indie games seem remarkably concentrated to the countries listed above. Despite its colossal size and huge tech industry and great prowess in digital effects for cinema, India has zero AAA game studios.
 
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Ivan NWG

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Another interesting tidbit. I'm a video game designer looking for work. These are basically the only countries where I ever find significant gaming studios that have been founded in that country and are not subsidiaries of a studio based elsewhere:

USA, Canada, China, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Poland, Germany, Spain, Czech Republic, UK, Russia (most have recently moved to Cyprus), Japan, South Korea.

There are random tiny mobile game studios everywhere, and some subsidiaries in more unusual places, but major developers of big games or internationally successful indie games seem remarkably concentrated to the countries listed above. Despite its colossal size and huge tech industry and great prowess in digital effects for cinema, India has zero AAA game studios.
For some of those I wonder how much is carryover from the 8 bit and 16 bit era
 

JohanL

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Jag tror på kombinationen av befolkning och tillfälligheter, men fanns det också skillnader i Sveriges och Danmarks system för bidrag till föreningar? Sveriges generösa system för föreningsbidrag gjorde att det fanns en uppsättning konflikts- och brädspelsföreningar där rollspel lätt kunde introduceras och spelas i mer organiserade former.
 

JohanL

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Njae, jag skulle säga att svenskar absolut tycker att svenska är töntigt. Och så har det varit åtminstone så länge jag levt.
Gud ja - det är rätt bortglömt nu, men det fanns definitivt en inställning bland många äldre rollspelare att bara kobolder (de yngre och helst mindre vana) spelade svenska spel.
 

Rickard

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Jag tror på kombinationen av befolkning och tillfälligheter, men fanns det också skillnader i Sveriges och Danmarks system för bidrag till föreningar? Sveriges generösa system för föreningsbidrag gjorde att det fanns en uppsättning konflikts- och brädspelsföreningar där rollspel lätt kunde introduceras och spelas i mer organiserade former.
Ja, och Sverok startade 1988 medan GothCon har funnits ända sedan 1977.

Det sagt, får inte sticka under stolen vilken bra marknadsföring Drakar och demoner hade. En klar majoritet av 80-talisterna antingen kände till eller hade spelat rollspel.
 
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Gamiel

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Something I've always found interesting is that Denmark seems to have a much stronger comic books culture than Sweden, in particular when it comes to translations, with lots of great Franco-Belgian comics translated into Danish. There's never really been a Swedish comic book artist on par with Peter Madsen and his Valhall books. Almost all talent in Swedish comics were for decades focused in the team who made the Phantom comic book, and only recently have some new translations of Franco-Belgian comics finally begun to appear - but the Danish catalogue still beats us by a mile.

Of course, it's still possible to argue that Sweden has been better than Denmark at actually producing comic books (Sweden has double the population after all), but I don't know, the interest certainly seems bigger in Denmark - the comic book selection at Faraos Cigarer in Copenhagen is far superior to anything you'll find in Sweden.

Just something I tought was interesting, and perhaps tangentially relevant to this subject.
Baserat på de serier jag såg i bokhandel hyllorna när jag var i Finland så känns det som även de har en mer utvecklad seriekultur. Norge har också en stor seriescen med alla sina egenproducerade dagsstripsserier och serietidningar, och en serieskapare jag talade med, Alice Engström, tog upp att det var mycket mer trevligt och bättre betalt att publicera sina Hooked alster i Norge än i Svergie.
 

Oscar Silferstjerna

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I always wondered why Danes never built a real RPG industry. There has been various attempts over the years to explain it, many of them pretty poor so I guess this is my thinking about it (also poor, since I still have covid). I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

After all we are culturally very similar, both countries had a high standard of living, high levels of education, a tradition of teenagers having "hobbies" and spending money, general public support for youth clubs, strong cultures for reading and libraries etc.

And roleplaying games DID become huge with Denmark, the convention scene became famous for a reason. But an industry? It never happened. Not really.

Some possibilities:

1:
Danes think the Danish language is lame.
Its not that we aren't proud of being Danes but basically anything in Danish tends to get viewed as being a bit "kikset": Goofy and a bit embarrassing perhaps even. Danish bands often sing in English and I always felt part of this affected games as well. I remember picking up the Fusion detective RPG and our group thinking it was funny that it was in Danish because it seemed so weird.

I've always felt (but could be wrong!) that Swedes put more emphasis on their own language. I remember as a teenager reading about how Swedish computer magazines often had Swedish words for things where we would end up using the English loan words instead.

So perhaps we were more minded to just go for the English option. After all, if it was in English, it must be cool.

2:
A population advantage.
Sweden is a small country but it is JUST a little bigger than Norway or Denmark population wise. I wonder if that difference had an effect?
After all more players means more people to play with, more people to enter the industry or make their own games, more people making stuff for conventions etc.
Perhaps there is a degree of critical mass where once you have JUST a bit over that 5 million people or whatever, it starts picking up steam and if you don't reach that point, you are likely never going to get there?

3:
Maybe we just got pre-empted?
Its of course possible that there just was not a point. Our translation of DoD is the only game that got big enough to be in book stores and was fairly widely played, so why make another one? The gaming stores have books from TSR, Games Workshop and White Wolf (later) so why make another one?
I remember as a little kid being in a gaming store in Viborg and gazing at games like Blood Bowl and Runequest with the store clerk explaining to like ... 9 year old me that Runequest was the game to play. I didn't understand any of it but I knew it was the coolest thing I had ever seen in my entire life.
(actually that store guy was the coolest guy too. He let me hang out in the store in the afternoons and let me ask questions and read books and he really didn't have to, and at a really difficult time in my little life. Thank you store guy. )

4:
Maybe we are all fucking hipsters.
The Danish scene famously revolved around convention games with the main magazine catering to that crowd. And while conventions had plenty of commercial games being played, the emphasis was very much of minimalist/non system semi-LARP scenarios that did not require (and often disdained the idea of) a rulebook.

Of course Denmark also developed a thriving LARP scene too.


So I dont know. What do you think? Why DID Sweden blow up with RPGs?
Jag tror inte att rollspel hade blivit så stort om inte Äventyrsspel (med Fredrik Malmberg) hade kommit igång så tidigt. Förmodligen var det också avgörande att de första svenskspråkiga rollspelen såldes i leksaksaffärer. Det gjorde dem mer tillgängliga - även i mindre städer som den jag själv växte upp i. Lägg därtill tidpunkten: rollspelen slog igenom innan datorspelen blev stora. Tio år senare var konkurrenssituationen en annan.

Många andra faktorer har redan nämnts ovan, men om jag ska peka på en som ännu inte nämnts blir det de skickliga svenska illustratörerna - alltså Gulliksson, Arfert, Kayat, Tapia, Egerkrans, Bergting mfl. Jag tycker att de står sig väl även i en internationell jämförelse. Tittar man på de senaste 15-20 årens utgivning så lägger jag även till grafisk formgivning. Många svenska rollspel är ovanligt snygga - ofta snyggare än de amerikanska. Det tror jag delvis kan förklaras med att det finns en del kopplingar till reklambranschen. Hur tryckta produkter ser ut är viktigt, kanske viktigare här än i de nordiska grannländerna.

Det slår mig nu att framgångarna i Sverige också kan förklaras utifrån ett fåtal tongivande titlar: Drakar och Demoner, Mutant, Svavelvinter, Konflux-sviten, Ereb Altor, Sinkadus, Fenix, Noir (för indieinfluenserna) och Mörk Borg (för tredjepartsexplosionen). Det finns förstås fler titlar som har varit betydelsefulla, men utan dem som jag just nämnde tror jag inte att vi hade fört den här diskussionen.
 
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Brödbane

Kristallkrönikör
Joined
1 Oct 2020
Messages
880
Der är kanske en lite tråkig teori, men jag tror att mörkret och de långa avstånden kan spela in. När vintermörkret drog in i Ånge/Arvika/Bollnäs/etc så hade tonåringarna inte så mycket att göra och när det är 40 mil till närmaste spelbutik så får man bli kreativ själv.

Danmark är ju betydligt mindre svårforcerat på de fronterna.
 
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